Serious thoughts on the drinking age...

[Vanhecht]

I have a rather strong opinion in favor of lowering the drinking age to 18, because i have A) enlisted, therefore can die for my country, B)earned it as a right/privilege through previously said argument. I do believe there should be restrictions, i.e., only those in cases like mine who are enlisted, or have finished high school should be allowed to drink. I understand it would be difficult to accompolish but please appease me as to why not?
Eric

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FUTURE MARINE!
OOHRAH!
American by birth TEXAN by choice!

[TC]

Well, here's how someone told me when I turned 17 and joined the Army.

"You are eligible to join the service when you're 17. You can't join before then. You have the option to drink alcohol when you're 21. You can't drink before then. Which part confuses you?"

Damn if that didn't make sense to me. http://www.3rdgen.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Now, my personal feelings on it. I wish they would have let me at least drink on post before I was 21. That part pissed me off. But, in reality, they raised the drinking age to 21 because of all the DWI related accidents. Evidently the numbers dropped in states that raised their age to 21, so the Feds jumped in and made it 21 for all states.

[plain82]

Congrats on making a tough decision. As a former Marine, let me say "Welcome to the FEW". Wait til you go overseas. If you can walk up to the bar, you can drink.

[AQUABATZ]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TC:
Well, here's how someone told me when I turned 17 and joined the Army.

"You are eligible to join the service when you're 17. You can't join before then. You have the option to drink alcohol when you're 21. You can't drink before then. Which part confuses you?"

Damn if that didn't make sense to me. http://www.3rdgen.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Now, my personal feelings on it. I wish they would have let me at least drink on post before I was 21. That part pissed me off. But, in reality, they raised the drinking age to 21 because of all the DWI related accidents. Evidently the numbers dropped in states that raised their age to 21, so the Feds jumped in and made it 21 for all states.</font>
I'm assuming "DWI" means "driving while intoxicated."

[Bullit]

there is a reason insurance is freakin sky high until you reach age 25. something to do with frequency of accidents; and alcohol is sometimes a big contributing factor.

[Vanhecht]

I understand the concept, but i still think drinking should be allowed to service men even under such restrictions as on base only. I d like to redefine my contention to include only servicemen and not all 18 yr olds. that said, reply away! http://www.3rdgen.org/ubb/smile.gif
Eric

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FUTURE MARINE!
OOHRAH!
American by birth TEXAN by choice!

[Bullit]

well, if that were the case i know of some 18 y/o's who would enlist strictly for the booze. http://www.3rdgen.org/ubb/biggrin.gif i think it has to be fair all the way around. you can't pick and choose which groups you want to enforce that on. it's called discrimination; someone is being discriminated against based solely on their employment status and you can't do that. yea, it sounds goofy and all, but there is some logic to it. it's like i can't own a pistol until i'm 21, but i can own a shotgun or rifle when i'm 18. there doesn't seem like much sense to it on the surface, but if you dig on it you will find some reasoning for it.

[TC]

I agree whole heartedly that you should be able to drink on base. Before I was 21, they never ID'd at the enlisted clubs on base.

[Vanhecht]

Yeah, you do have a point Bullit, it just seems like i have the right to it in some way...guess ill have to think about that one.
Eric

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FUTURE MARINE!
OOHRAH!
American by birth TEXAN by choice!

[O2BQIK]

1st: I'm not a cop :-)

Well...I've heard the argument that "if I can die for my country at 18, why can't i drink at 18?" But personally, i don't see how the two are related. Seems to me that one is an honerable and sometimes heroic thing to do, while the other is often the opposite. It takes maturity to be able to drink responsibly...some people ARE mature enough at 18, but I think most are not.

One final thought: As the guy that pays the bills (i.e. taxpayer), you would have a heckuva time convincing me that laws should be changed to allow our military to drink! I mean...I'm sure it happens all the time, but it seems to me that I'd really rather they not be getting smashed while I'm paying them to train/win conflicts.

http://www.3rdgen.org/ubb/biggrin.gif flame away!

~ty

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'99 Camaro SS #0273 of 4829
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My AIM is O2BQIK (that first character is a letter, not a number)

[Jason86Z28]

I agre the age should be dropped to 18, but not because of the whole enlistment thing. The day I turned 18 I became legally responsible for myself, I can enter into contracts, do the full time for any crime I may commit, and choose to slowly kill myself by smoking, decided who is going to run my town, state, and country, but I'm not old enough to decide whether or not I can drink responsibly? I personally think that bullshit. I do drink responsibly, whether thats because thats the way I am or if its because I know I'm fucked if a cop catches me, I don't know. But I still have issues with the age being 21. On the same note I think weed should be legalized, its far less dangerous than alcohol (no one has ever had a trip to the ER because they took too many bong rips at a party, vodka shots... thats another story) with many of the same effects from prolonged usage..... flame away!

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[NO RICE]

How serious is it to be drunk in your car while your sober friend is driving. If you are not 21. Is that just a drinking charge?

In AZ, you can legally carry a handgun at the age of 18... but drinking is a crime...

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LS1 eatin', 85 T/A....

Russian-American redneck!

[IROCSS]

I think they should raise it to 65.. you can drink when you retire. http://www.3rdgen.org/ubb/wink.gif

Actually my personal feelings are if one drug, Alcohol, is legal.. all drugs should be. If drugs are illegal then so should be alcohol.

[KamaroZ'91]

I think the drinking age should remain at 21, unless your enlisted active duty in the military, then you can start at 18 if infact your enlisted.

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[kage87Z]

Gee... now I'm ecstatic that I spent my formative years (17 and 5 months thru 20 and 8 months) in Germany, swilling up that excellent brew.

I agree with the argument. The moment you bolt on the uniform, you assume the responsibility. The idea of sending people out to fight, but not allowing them to drink is, well, bizarre.

As for "discrimination," the fact is that society and our laws discriminate in favor of the military every day. Thus, among others, we have "veterans preference" in some hiring situations.

Will it result in more DUI's and a higher traffic accident/death rate? Of course. But that's not really the issue, is it? So MANY things we do can have that effect. For example, do we really NEED Vortecs and Nitrous under our hoods with the resulting 400 - odd horsepower?

No. We don't. But we can make the choice to go that route, or not, even though there is, IMO, SOME SMALL danger in increased traffic accidents and deaths with the availability of that kind of horsepower. After all, we are only allowed to go 70 mph or so... aren't we?

Have a beer on me, Marine. Even though I was Army, IMO, anyone who's made it out of boot is as much a man as me, any damned day.

FWIW

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[kman87iroc]

How is it that i am Responsible enough to vote for anything and everything but i cant have a brew at 18. Another thing, 21 isnt the law around the world. how do you figure that an 18 year old from canada is more responsible then an 18 year old from the Sates. 21 isn't even the federal drinking law. It is a state controlled thging. the states were basically black malied from the gov't to bring the age to 21. they were told that unless the drinking age is 21 they would be denied certian grants for things like road care, and other things. well thats just my 2 cents.

[Bullit]

well, giving preference to one group as far as employment goes is something totally different. that's like saying we only hire you if you have a college degree. the other side is like saying kids in east middle school can smoke, but kids in west middle school can't because we think they are mature enough to do so since their grades are much higher. makes no sense whatsoever. i stand firm on my opinion. if a kid goes to college for 4 years, then he is most likely to graduate at 21. i think most will agree that if a kid is going to drink, college is a great place to do it because you are in a dorm, no parents, and you could probably do it frequently. do you see where this is going?

[kage87Z]

>well, giving preference to one group as far as employment goes is something totally different.

I don't think so. Veteran's preference is a reward for service to the country. It's also part of the deal we got when we signed up... just like the privilege of drinking at age 18 could be.

As a Company Commander in a combat situation, I doubt that you'd ID your soldiers before you'd allow them to have a beer in the fire base.

>that's like saying we only hire you if you have a college degree.

Again, I disagree. Veteran's status is independent of academic accomplishment. A college degree may be necessary to do a job; it's also an attainment separate from the achievement of service at risk of life.

>the other side is like saying kids in east middle school can smoke, but kids in west middle school can't because we think they are mature enough to do so since their grades are much higher.

Sorry. Kids that don't put their lives at risk as part of a job description are, by definition, different then those who do.

The issue is not one of "maturity." The issue is one of treating everyone in the military the same, regardless of age because, after all, everyone in the military shares one possibility that those not in the military, or who have not been in the military (absent certain specialized civilian jobs) do not: the opportunity to spill their blood in some country far away in defense of this country.

I cannot get on the outside of the idea that that we can send our kids to Bosnia, but that they can't pound a Bud. To me, it's right up there with the old days, where we sent minorities overseas that fought and died for us only to, in some cases, deny them the vote when they returned.

Men and women in uniform have earned this right, IMO.

>makes no sense whatsoever.

I suppose it all depends on what your definition of "sense" is.

>i stand firm on my opinion.

OK.... differences are one of the things that make us great.

>if a kid goes to college for 4 years, then he is most likely to graduate at 21. i think most will agree that if a kid is going to drink, college is a great place to do it because you are in a dorm, no parents, and you could probably do it frequently.

Absolutely. That's why so many of these same kids wind up dead, because they get blasted in college, and drink themselves to death as a frat stunt.

>do you see where this is going?

Hopefully, it's going to full recognition of that truth that all servicemembers know: that at any moment, they might have to give that last, full measure for their country.

I cannot, in good conscience, deny someone who has made such a commitment a Miller.

[kman87iroc]

Not all kids graduate from college at 21. Im 19 and i am a senior in high school. No im not a complete iddiot. Ive never failed a class, but i did go to reddiness. ill be 23 when i graduate. I dont see the problem with having a few brews every now and then. But im also completly against drinking and driving. Now that is stupid

[Bullit]

here is another one for thought. when you sign up for the military and you are 18, exactly WHO is deemed your legal guardian? you can consume alcohol as long as you are in the presence of a parent or legal guardian. so if i am a commander of a platoon and a few choose to drink, technically i'm the legal guardian because i am the supervisor directly responsible for the behavior, safety, and actions of my troops. however, you still cannot make a law that only applies to people based on employment regardless of what it might cost you and military is strictly employment, nothing more. it is a job you choose to do. you have not been pressured to go into that line of work, at least not recently. back when the draft was still in effect i might agree because EVERYONE was required to join the military so the law would no longer be selective of who it was enforced on.

this has turned out to be an interesting discussion....

[kage87Z]

>here is another one for thought. when you sign up for the military and you are 18, exactly WHO is deemed your legal guardian?

No one. In almost every instance, the age of 18 is deemed the age of majority. To that end, there is no guardian relationship per se', as 18 year olds can do most things a 21 year old can do without anyone else's permission.

>you can consume alcohol as long as you are in the presence of a parent or legal guardian.

Does this not depend on the state? Unless the reasons are for religious purposes, again, I don't believe minors are allowed to consume alcohol here in Washington even w/parent's say so.

>so if i am a commander of a platoon and a few choose to drink, technically i'm the legal guardian because i am the supervisor directly responsible for the behavior, safety, and actions of my troops.

That responsibility is a function of command as opposed to any guardianship aspect.

Guardians, for example, can enter into legal agreements that can bind a child to some extent. There are some contracts that guardians can sign on a child's behalf, for example. I don't believe that right exists to platoon leaders.

>however, you still cannot make a law that only applies to people based on employment regardless of what it might cost you and military is strictly employment, nothing more.

On the contrary, there are a variety of laws that do that very thing that are based entirely on military service and nothing else.

One example is the Veteran's Re-employment Act. Another is the Veteran's Readjustment Act. Another are the laws relating to college VA Benefits.

While the military is, of course, a job, the congress and the people of this country have determined that it is, in fact, MORE then just "employment."

The mere existence of these laws is proof that being in the military provides a class. And it would not be unconstitutional to grant this right to any servicemember on active duty as a result. Providing the right for 18 year old servicemembers to drink would be no more discriminatory then the tenets of the Veteran's Re-employment Act, which guarantees reemployment under certain circumstances, a law uniquely applied to veterans.

>it is a job you choose to do.

True enough... just like the soldiers of old who, believe it or not, were not allowed to vote. They had a choice as well. Would you have us turn back the clock and tell our soldiers that, even though they CHOOSE to be in the military, their right to vote is now over?

>you have not been pressured to go into that line of work, at least not recently.

Neither is anyone else. Does that mean we should get rid of unions, for example? I mean, why have them? Everyone working knew how much they were going to make when they were hired. What right does anyone have to complain about their wages if they work voluntarily and knew how much going in they were going to make?

>back when the draft was still in effect i might agree because EVERYONE was required to join the military so the law would no longer be selective of who it was enforced on.

But, in reality, EVERYONE didn't join. The situation then was roughly the same as it would be now. Draft or no, only a small percentage of males in the 18-21 age group were actually serving. The VAST majority then, just like now, were not.

>this has turned out to be an interesting discussion....

*I'm* liking it!

[crazeinc]

Changing the drinking age to 18 would solve a lot of problems, but create just as many.

I wish it would be 18 because then I wouldn't of gotten a ticket for it http://www.3rdgen.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

The problem is, if kids want to drink, they're going to drink no matter what. It's just the way it works. The kids that cause DUI accidents are the same ones that will do it if it was an 18 drinking age. The military really has nothing to do with this issue. Anyone can die for their country and anyone can die from drinking.

I've always been a strong believer in making the drinking age 16 (but only lighter beers until 18) and then the driving age at 18. At least with the 2 years they know what it's like to feel tipsy so they'll know better than to drive.

As far as marijuana and all of that, the same really applies...

[Bullit]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kage87Z:
On the contrary, there are a variety of laws that do that very thing that are based entirely on military service and nothing else.

One example is the Veteran's Re-employment Act. Another is the Veteran's Readjustment Act. Another are the laws relating to college VA Benefits.</font>

these are not laws pertaining to a criminal behavior. they are civil laws.

[kage87Z]

>however, you still cannot make a law that only applies to people based on employment regardless of what it might cost you and military is strictly employment, nothing more.

I agree that the laws I specified in response to this observation (Readjustment and Reemployment) are not based on criminal behavoir. But drinking, per se' is usually not criminal behavoir.

That we have laws of a civil nature which separate out veterans of every stripe for special consideration shows that it's not much of a leap to enable the various states (and clearly, this is a state issue) to enact laws allowing those who serve this additional privlege as a result of that service.

And no, I don't see this as a recruiting enducement. "Join the Army... and Drink" (I'm a bartender of one) I do, however, see it as an acknowledgement of the reality: that every soldier, regardless of age or gender, is an adult in every sense of the word.

/rant-on/ I've ALWAYS had a problem with what I refer to as "double-standard" laws. I believe the message they send to our youth is hypocritical and confusing. I believe the double-standard they impose on our servicemembers does them a disservice. And I admit that being a shithot Recon Section sergeant at age 20, and not being able to get a sixer, really pissed me off./rant-off/

I also know that in the name of political correctness, this issue will not be resolved to my satisfaction (or our budding Marine's approval) any time real soon. Those who support the 21 drinking age far outnumber those of us who would request this exemption based on service.

In closing, I recognize that there are very many more pressing problems (my starter (detailed on the GT Board) and documentation for the Washington State Patrol inspection I'm going to have to take my Camaro thru)to name a few.

[Vanhecht]

Wow! I am really surprised at the volume of discussion that has occurred in response to my comment. I do realize I am not the first but it is still exciting.

On the idea of discrimination, I'd like to make a distinction. Discrimination can be a beautiful thing. When used inappropriately, it can be flat out wrong. However we have to make distinctions between people, aka discrimination, and this is not necessarily wrong just natural. I have to discriminate all the time,for example, choosing which shirt to wear in the morning. I am merely expostulating that discrimination in this case is not necessarily a bad or vicious thing.

In doing the gov't a service (enlisting) I think I should receive such privileges if not rights such as drinking. My gov't owes me a small thing in that. The harm that comes of it would possibly be minimal, as such drinking would most likely be very controlled. As an 18yr old now, I do drink, and I have not received the right(as I see it) as of now pending only my completion of bootcamp (starting 11 June). I can tell you that acquiring alcohol is only a matter of will as there are so many options available. In other words, it is no big thing to get my booze. My point is this; pretty much anyone who wants some can get it.

so continues my crusade(thanks for all the support!)

eric

[Bullit]

why should an 18 y/o college student be treated any different than an 18 y/o jarhead? what's the difference? NOTHING! they are the same. one hangs out in a little room and reads books, the other runs around yelling mumbo jumbo while shooting a gun. which one would you prefer to be under the influence of alcohol? just because you are in the military doesn't automatically subject you to special privleges. you may get BENEFITS afforded by the government as a result of your 'employment status', but you aren't granted certain immunities from criminal law as a result of your employment status. 'it's not just a JOB, it's an adventure.' see, they tell you it's just a job right from the start. 'the few, the proud, the marines.' i say, 'the smart, the soon to be wealthy, the college student.' i would think that someone who decided to stay here, go to school, not get involved with something that has a higher level of risk, and probably has intentions of making a career out of his education probably is mature enough to be able to drink alcohol, but then again, we wouldn't have a law that says 21 and over if they were. here endeth the lesson.

[Vanhecht]

You're response is almost insulting, Bullit, as your purporting that an 18 yr old in the military has a)no common sense b)is not as responsible as a college student. You dont read about drinking deaths in the military nearly as often as you read about drinking deaths in colleges. And to say they are risking more than me as studets is an insult, for if a war begins they will not be doing anything, are not subject to the draft and will most likely not enlist. Where's the risk there? And you must be disillusioned to what many college kids actually do. Many are non stop partiers and have no work ethic and will not be rich. You also assume i will not be earning a college degree while in the military and i am obviously too stupid to go to college. No, i am earning my chance to go to college at no monetary cost to me right now. Through my service i have the chance at a degree with no worry of debts. So by rich do you mean paying alot in student loans?

eric

[Jason86Z28]

Between Vanhecht and Bullit's responses there is the perfect reason for the drinking age being across the board (i'd rather 18, but if its gotta be 21 then so be it). Some of the defenses (excuses) for making the age 18 for military personnel are they're defending the country so they've earned the right to drink. That is complete bullshit. There's 3 reasons to join the service, 1. Money for College, 2. Nothing better to do, no school, no well paying jobs, 3. Want to fight for his country. In this day in age #3 is the VAST minority. Out of all the people I went to school with that joined up, NONE of them joined for just #3, and for most of them, that was a very minute point. That being said, the vast majority of people in the service are not there to serve they're country, they're there to be served by their country and therefore haven't earned the right to drink any more than the kid in college, or the kid that went straight to Dunkin Donuts University straight out of high school, or the kid that hasn't even gotten his GED for that matter. That being said, I still think the drinking age should be 18, the US is one of the only (maybe the only) country where the drinking age is 21. As i said in my previous post. I can vote, I can smoke, I can gamble, I can legally enter contracts, I can own property, any crime you commit you can and will do the full time. Why are all these things afforded to you when you turn 18? Because you are legally deemed responsible for your actions. But somehow you're not responsible enough to choose whether or not to drink, and how much to drink. Maybe its just me, but I think voting for who's going to run our government is a much bigger decision than whether or not your going to knock back a few at home, a bar, a party, a sport event, anywhere.

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[Vanhecht]

It's a moot point why a person is serving because he is still serving. The fact is that he is serving whether or not he is getting money for college, or has nothing better to do or wants to defend his country. i am serving for number three evn though i am also recieving benifits such as money for college possibly, even though it is not gurranteed. Now we have established that i am still serving and the reason matters not.

Next argument.

eric

[Jason86Z28]

the reason is not a moot point, that reason proves that there is no difference between an 18 year old in college, at mcd's, or in the army. Most of the kids in the service right now wont see any more battle time than the kids in college, and they know that, so they haven't earned a damn thing more than any other 18 year old has. If your going to lower the drinking age to 18 for any specific group, lower it to people in the service that have actually seen foregein shores, not the ones sitting on their thumb getting money for college.

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[This message has been edited by Jason86Z28 (edited 03-09-2001).]

[Bullit]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vanhecht:
1:You dont read about drinking deaths in the military nearly as often as you read about drinking deaths in colleges.

2:if a war begins they will not be doing anything, are not subject to the draft and will most likely not enlist.

3:Many are non stop partiers and have no work ethic and will not be rich. </font>

1: the military has a nice way of keeping statistics to themselves. i'm a cop and i know a WHOLE lot of ex-MP's. i've heard all the stories concerning the drunks on base. most of them believe there are more drunks in the military than in the free world. that comes from ex-MP's. plus, the number of people in college far exceeds that of active members in the military.

2: if i remember right, i was required by law to register with the selective service so i, along with every other male over the age of 18, am subject to the draft.

3: you just defended my point as to why you should be at least 21 to consume alcohol.

i have had more than my fair share of active military people beg me not to arrest them for DWI. i hope they got that hard labor stuff they always talk about. i started to go into the military until i began talking with some active and recently retired members. i was advised against it by almost ALL of them. the benefits have diminished greatly in the last few years due to gov't cutbacks. one guy i know was told to resign because of cutbacks, since he got a GED just so he could join early. he wanted to make a career out of it and follow his dad, since he was a founding member of the original SEALS. a good friend of mine was a chief master sergeant in the air force and was a commander of his own base in viet nam. he was in para-rescue and God does he have stories. one guy i knew told me all about his sniper detail in a city he went into. i have pictures of people my cousin blew up in desert storm when he was 20. everyone of these people believe in the drinking age being 21.

[plain82]

I served in the Marines for 8 years. I never saw combat. I joined because it was basically my only option for a future. The drinking age should stay at 21. The ugly truth of the matter is that anyone who wants alcohol is going to get it somewhere. Whether it be from some store off-base, or from a buddy. All this is easy for me to say, I'm 34. I can buy booze any time I want to (except on Sundays.) If I was 18 again, I might agree with lowering the drinking age. But, fact is fact. I'm not and the age is going to stay 21. Maybe we need prohibition again. Okay, that's enough rambling from my sorry ass. Agree or disagree with anything I've said. I don't care. It will not change my life, my past or my future in the least. http://www.3rdgen.org/ubb/tongue.gif